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StrayDog
New Member
Posts:7
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| 05 Jan 2010 04:15 AM |
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Posted By cmkavala on 12/24/2009 6:08 AM Posted By StrayDog on 12/24/2009 2:19 AM
Steel skinned SIPS are not available here, so not an option.
they are used widely in europe
have yet to see them make an appearance here, but will keep looking |
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StrayDog
New Member
Posts:7
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| 05 Jan 2010 04:16 AM |
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Posted By toddm on 12/24/2009 7:12 AM
Couldn't help shaking my head, though, at all that mass you are putting on the wrong side of the insulation.
by this, do you mean the stone skin ? not sure i follow.
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StrayDog
New Member
Posts:7
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| 05 Jan 2010 04:20 AM |
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jazzdude
havn't quite worked out how to post below quotes yet
Ytong blocks seem to have quite good performance. in germany they swear by them, and they have some of the strictest standards in europe in terms of insulation etc. a friend of mine has a concrete frame house with ytong, no further insulation used and the temperature inside is quite comfortable during all seasons. and his plot is on a higher and thus colder altitude than mine.
how would the 6" stone wall would affect room size ? sure, the overall footprint of the house would be a little bigger due to the extra skin of stone, but i have enough land and building allowance for that not to be a problem.
"Combining AAC with a steel frame is also very tricky in a climate where there are large changes in temperatures in a single day. Differential expansion between the steel and the AAC will be crack heaven unless special attention is given to expansion joints and the two systems are isolated"
This is my biggest worry actually, too many materials combined, all expanding and contracting at different rates. SIPS is more uniform and i like that better.
"If you do use a steel frame it is imperitive that this is fire protected. I have seen many examples in the region you are talking about where they replace concrete frame with steel frame and place the steel in line with the infill blocks. There is little or no insulation at these hot bridges and also only a single skin of plasterboard to fire protect them. In the event of a fire, a house with inadequate fire protection on steel will curl up like spagetti. This also goes for suspended intermediate floors in steel"
What could improve fireproofing at the hot bridges ? also are SIPS homes more fire resistant than steel frame ? as far as i know they are just timber (osb) with the same fireproofing (plasterboard or 'drywall') that would be used in a steel frame structure, but maybe you can shed some light here.
"if the company you were talking to have a good product, and are professional in the way they work (check their track record and get them to give you more references other than your friend) you cannot go too far wrong with SIPS"
yes, they have an excellent reputation and are growing rapidly due to referrals.
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jazzdude
New Member
Posts:11
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| 05 Jan 2010 04:23 AM |
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What toddm is saying is that usually you put your thermal mass on the inside of a wall and not outside.
The idea is that you use it internally as a flywheel that evens out the temperature fluctuations that you get though out the day. By insulating the outside surface you basically keep this mass from being affected by the outside temperatures directly, but use it to absorb and balance out the changing internal temperatures, due to for instance, lighting, inhabitants, a thermal gains through windows.
This is obviously not what you intend to do with your stone but this is the principle.
Another way of offering thermal mass to a house is the foundation slab. If it is say a raft slab, the mass of concrete will work in the same way.
Hope this helps
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jazzdude
New Member
Posts:11
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| 05 Jan 2010 04:35 AM |
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Ytong blocks seem to have quite good performance. in germany they swear by them, and they have some of the strictest standards in europe in terms of insulation
A lightweight block can achieve the insulation standards without a doubt, but you need a thicker block than you would with SIPs to get the same level of insulation. Another thing to consider is that you will need special fixings to attach things to lightweight block as they can be soft.
how would the 6" stone wall would affect room size ? sure, the overall footprint of the house would be a little bigger due to the extra skin of stone, but i have enough land and building allowance for that not to be a problem.
In many countries and this may be the case there, building floor area is measured to the outside face of a wall for planning permission reasons. If you are looking to build a 3000 sq ft house then this in zoning terms is measured to the outside wall.
Say a standard wall is 10" thick and you add another 6" to it. If you are restricted by overall footprint area then this extra wall thickness will go in rather than out. Check this with your architect.
What could improve fireproofing at the hot bridges ? also are SIPS homes more fire resistant than steel frame ? as far as i know they are just timber (osb) with the same fireproofing (plasterboard or 'drywall') that would be used in a steel frame structure,
The steel would need to be protected with an fire retardant paint as well as having two layers of a fire check board, to give it at least 1 hour of fire protection. It may be that the authorities in your country require more.
SIPS with Polyurethane cores can achieve high levels of fire resistance because they are resistant to spread of flame (the material forms a charcoal face in the event of a fire and burns extremely slowly). The fact that there is no air gap inside the panel as in normal stick frame means that the transmission of fire can be resisted for up to 80 minutes. This of course needs a layer of drywall to control the spread of flame.
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:2009
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| 05 Jan 2010 06:19 AM |
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Posted By StrayDog on 01/05/2010 4:15 AM
have yet to see them make an appearance here, but will keep looking
Stray dog your looking is over see attached map for manufacturing and sales offices thru- out Europe http://www.kingspan.com/kingspangroup/kingspan_worldwide/ |
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Chris Kavala
info@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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aekimble
New Member
Posts:13
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| 16 Jan 2010 10:38 PM |
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Ytong/Hebel is the superior building material compared to other building alternatives. Concerning the ability to insuloate your buidling properly these factors shoud be addressed: 1.) Insulation and how the insulation will perform throughout the buidling life cycle. 2.) Thermal bridging - the insulation is rated but the structural component also must be factored for instance what thermal conductivity is being tranfered between a wood or steel stud. 3.) Air leaks - are there any voids that let out your conditioned air creating more thermal bridges AAC is superior in all of these areas. The insulation of the block will never deteriorate or under perform. No thermal bridging in the thermal mass system along with the unique manufacturing process. And with this systems there are no air leaks. As well coupled with the highest UL fire rating of 4 hours, pest resistent and resistance to mold this is by the greenest most sustainabale building product. FYI Ytong and Hebel are AAC production technologies that are owned by Xella Baustoffe Germany. Any question feel free to contact me. 060 www.buildwithhebel.com |
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exipnos
New Member
Posts:3
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| 17 Jan 2010 05:03 PM |
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I have a AAC home and overall I'm happy with it. But do not combine this material with dry wall. Moisture travels well with this material but since it breathes its normally not a problem. But moisture and drywall don't go together. Regular plaster on the walls will be sufficient.
Regards |
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aekimble
New Member
Posts:13
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| 17 Jan 2010 06:02 PM |
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Expinos,
You are correct to install drywall/sheet rock directly to AAC is not the best method. If you choose to install drywall on an AAC house it is best to install furring strips and attach the drywall to the furring strips.
The best option though is to directly apply either drywall mud or a plaster directly to the AAC block. Drywall/sheetrock is notoriously problematic for mold or foreign countries manufacturing it with ammonia casuing electric and plumbing lines to corrode.
That is the beauty of Hebel AAC no need for drywall/sheetrock |
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jazzdude
New Member
Posts:11
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| 18 Jan 2010 01:33 AM |
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Posted By aekimble on 01/16/2010 10:38 PM Ytong/Hebel is the superior building material compared to other building alternatives. Concerning the ability to insuloate your buidling properly these factors shoud be addressed: 1.) Insulation and how the insulation will perform throughout the buidling life cycle. 2.) Thermal bridging - the insulation is rated but the structural component also must be factored for instance what thermal conductivity is being tranfered between a wood or steel stud. 3.) Air leaks - are there any voids that let out your conditioned air creating more thermal bridges AAC is superior in all of these areas. The insulation of the block will never deteriorate or under perform. No thermal bridging in the thermal mass system along with the unique manufacturing process. And with this systems there are no air leaks. As well coupled with the highest UL fire rating of 4 hours, pest resistent and resistance to mold this is by the greenest most sustainabale building product. FYI Ytong and Hebel are AAC production technologies that are owned by Xella Baustoffe Germany. Any question feel free to contact me. 060 www.buildwithhebel.comI am not sure how you feel that AAC deals with the three areas you list and in which way it compares to SIPs. They are genrally used in conjunction with another system so more care is required. As far as insulation is concerned, you will never get the same level of insulation with AAC with a given wall width as you do with SIPs. To get anything close at least double the wall thickness is required. In earthquake zones they are not considered suitable for a load bearing or framing walls, as they cannot resist axial loads, meaning that you would have to do that with another element, say a frame in concrete, steel or wood. If you are looking at thermal bridges then the AAC must be independent from this frame, adding either an exposed frame internally or externally, which will need fire protection, or inline with the AAC, meaning thermal bridging, or cladding and jointing dissimilar materials. Unless AAC is continuous how do you also deal with air leaks? SIPs offer the option of a continuous shell throughout walls and roof with one material, both insulation and structural with controlled joints giving you a superior air tight buiding. The fire resistance is not disputed but as these walls are not holding up your building it is the fire resistance of the structural element that is more important.
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aekimble
New Member
Posts:13
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| 18 Jan 2010 08:56 AM |
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Jazzdude,
Concerning the comparison AAC vs. SIPS insulation we are very comparable
8 1/4" SIPS EPS is 28
8 " Hebel when factoring DBMS is up 27
Concerning earthquakes zones and how Hebel AAC performs I believe you are a bit misguided. For residential Hebel AAC has no limitations for any seismic zones ref. IBC and ACI 530. For commercial ongoing tests are being evaluated but, currently we are restricted in seismic C for blocks and panels have yet to be classified so currentl the recommendation is to have shear wall out of traditional CMU blocks.
Also, here is a study from UC Davis about AAC and how it performed in Kobe, Japan during the earthquake.
"AAC buildings can be engineered for earthquake and hurricane prone areas, and such buildings have performed well to date. For example, the vast majority of AAC homes in the 1995 Kobe, Japan earthquake survived substantially undamaged.13 They also were immune from fires started during the earthquake and even acted as firebreaks. The ability of AAC structures to withstand fires and natural disasters minimizes waste, contamination to the surrounding environment, and the need for repair materials, while also lowering insurance costs."
http://extension.ucdavis.edu/unit/green_building_and_sustainability/pdf/resources/auto_aerated_concrete.pdf
Air leaks and thermal bridges are not a problem for Hebel AAC. Hebel AAC manufactures blcoks and panels for walls, lintels, and roof/floor panels making the structure an homogenous building envelope. Where SIPS still has thermal conductivity trhough the framing element (2x4) and possibly in the soffit areas.
Link to our prodcut information below:
http://www.xella-usa.com/html/us/en/product_information.php
I noticed you are an architect/engineer. If you would like I can schedule an AIA prsentation for your firm to explain the benfits of Hebel AAC.
Adam Kimble
adam.kimble@xella.com
504-616-1060
buildwithhebel.com
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Torben
New Member
Posts:48
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| 18 Jan 2010 10:55 AM |
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Posted By aekimble on 01/18/2010 8:56 AM Jazzdude,
Concerning the comparison AAC vs. SIPS insulation we are very comparable
8 1/4" SIPS EPS is 28
8 " Hebel when factoring DBMS is up 27
Concerning earthquakes zones and how Hebel AAC performs I believe you are a bit misguided. For residential Hebel AAC has no limitations for any seismic zones ref. IBC and ACI 530. For commercial ongoing tests are being evaluated but, currently we are restricted in seismic C for blocks and panels have yet to be classified so currentl the recommendation is to have shear wall out of traditional CMU blocks.
Also, here is a study from UC Davis about AAC and how it performed in Kobe, Japan during the earthquake.
"AAC buildings can be engineered for earthquake and hurricane prone areas, and such buildings have performed well to date. For example, the vast majority of AAC homes in the 1995 Kobe, Japan earthquake survived substantially undamaged.13 They also were immune from fires started during the earthquake and even acted as firebreaks. The ability of AAC structures to withstand fires and natural disasters minimizes waste, contamination to the surrounding environment, and the need for repair materials, while also lowering insurance costs."
http://extension.ucdavis.edu/unit/green_building_and_sustainability/pdf/resources/auto_aerated_concrete.pdf
Air leaks and thermal bridges are not a problem for Hebel AAC. Hebel AAC manufactures blcoks and panels for walls, lintels, and roof/floor panels making the structure an homogenous building envelope. Where SIPS still has thermal conductivity trhough the framing element (2x4) and possibly in the soffit areas.
Link to our prodcut information below:
http://www.xella-usa.com/html/us/en/product_information.php
I noticed you are an architect/engineer. If you would like I can schedule an AIA prsentation for your firm to explain the benfits of Hebel AAC.
Adam Kimble
adam.kimble@xella.com
504-616-1060
buildwithhebel.com
A 6-inch metal skinned SIP panel from Kingspan has an R-value rating of R-49 and I would guess is substantially cheaper and easier to build with than AAC. DBMS is an innovative way to come up with a number that is over double the real R-value. Kingspan panels are also fire rated.
I think in marketing AAC panels you would do much better putting them up against traditional construction methods than SIP panels. Trying to show they outperform SIPS is going to be difficult at best. They may even be a reasonable choice in dryer environments where you could take advantage of the daily temperature swings. In humid or extreme heating or cooling environments I don't see where they could compete. Even when using mass to take advantage of temperature swings you will get much more bang for your buck with water or solid concrete (such as a thickened bottom/side insulated slab) than an aerated (less massive, more expensive) wall system. |
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aekimble
New Member
Posts:13
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| 18 Jan 2010 12:09 PM |
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Torben,
Concerning your commnets I would like to address the following:
Fire resistance
Hebel AAC as a single component is UL rated for 4 hrs.
SIPS says the following:
"How does the Kingspan TEK Building System react to fire?
The Kingspan TEK Building System exceeded the Building Regulation requirements with regards to fire resistance and achieved 54 minutes fire resistance and structural integrity (when internally lined with 12.5 mm standard plasterboard) and 73 minutes fire resistance and structural integrity (when internally lined with 12.5 mm fire resistant plasterboard) in accordance with BS476: Part 21: 1987 ((Fire tests on building materials and structures). Methods for determination of the fire resistance of load bearing elements of construction to the Building Regulations)."
Kingspan needs sheetrock to achieve 53 minutes and 73 minutes for fire resistance (sheetrock already has 1 hr. rating). And steel when fired loses structural integrity Hebel AAC does not.
Winner: Hebel AAC
Cost: Hebel AAC finished wall $10-$13 finsihed wall seems comparable to SIPS
Location viability: Hebel/Ytong is the preferred building material throughout the world coldest (Russia) to hottest (UAE,Iraq, Egypt etc.
DBMS (dynamic benefit for massive system) refers to IECC refers to ASHRAE and the GOV (hate to fight that battle)
In colder climates DMBS works in the opposite manner keeping heat in and cold out. Hebel AAC has microscopic air pockets throughout the block which have to be either heated or cooled to tranfer the temperature hence better than poured concrete.
In central/south florida the typical construction method is first floor cemetious based material and wood floor above. I would assume why you would see AAC beneficial in southeast areas (safety). Plus I live in the souteast as well and temeprature swing in these areas well.
If you would like feel free to contact me I can give a tour of our plant in Adel, GA and explain the benefits of Hebel AAC.
Adam Kimble
adam.kimble@xella.com
504-616-1060
buildwithhebel.com
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aekimble
New Member
Posts:13
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| 18 Jan 2010 12:11 PM |
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Also verify r-value with website of kingspan would be good for my records |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:2009
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| 18 Jan 2010 12:40 PM |
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Posted By aekimble on 01/18/2010 12:09 PM
Cost: Hebel AAC finished wall $10-$13 finsihed wall seems comparable to SIPS
Your AAC is 30% higher than SIPS if you include the interior and exterior finishes in your pricing Are you using AAC roof panels too, and if so, what are the span capabilities |
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Chris Kavala
info@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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aekimble
New Member
Posts:13
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| 18 Jan 2010 12:55 PM |
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30% more expensive than SIPS is very misleading. Case studies and real construction costs show Hebel AAC to be 7% more expensive than traditional stick built houses and basically cost even with finished CMU walls. Therefore you must be 27% cheaper than stick built. If thats so I will close my account.
BTW expected life span for Hebel AAC building is 220 years plus (true meaning of sustainability)
Houses in USA that are 50 years old are old houses. Old houses in Europe are 500 years old. Something to show for concrete |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:2009
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| 18 Jan 2010 03:10 PM |
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Posted By aekimble on 01/18/2010 12:55 PM
BTW expected life span for Hebel AAC building is 220 years plus (true meaning of sustainability)
Houses in USA that are 50 years old are old houses. Old houses in Europe are 500 years old. Something to show for concrete I think you will find many houses in the US well over 50 years old that are in fine condition. In Europe the Acroplis also comes to mind BTW our FrictionLoc panels are calculated at 300+ years life expectancy thru accelerated aging tests, are made with 30% recycled steel, leave a smaller carbon foot print (a truer measure of sustainability) |
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Chris Kavala
info@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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aekimble
New Member
Posts:13
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| 18 Jan 2010 03:51 PM |
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Chris,
That is awesome that you all recycle and use 30% recycled steel. Hebel AAC is a TOTALLY inert building material (no petrochemical by products).
Hebel AAC is as natural in the world as wood. Hebel AAC has a scientific name Tobermorite and can be found in its natural state The Isles of Wight, England. We actually manufacturer more of a naturally found material. NOW thats sustainability, why recycle wehn you make something that is natural.
I am glad you can point to great concrete construction of Acropolis which has been through countless wars, seiges etc. that has stood since around 430 B.C. There are countless other concrete structure in Europe you can reference leanig tower of Piza 1173.
Also, the Eifel SIPS tower is pretty cool too.
In high school I once built a paper mache house that was rated to withstand 1 million years. Lets let hsitory prove itself. |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:2009
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| 18 Jan 2010 05:06 PM |
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Posted By aekimble on 01/18/2010 3:51 PM
Chris,
is natural.
I am glad you can point to great concrete construction of Acropolis which has been through countless wars, seiges etc. that has stood since around 430 B.C. There are countless other concrete structure in Europe you can reference leanig tower of Piza 1173.
Well I hate to disappoint you but portland cement was not invented until the 1800s, the Acropolis is not concrete but is limestone and has been under repairs for the last 30 years and will take at least another 20 years to complete. There are countless other stone structures in Europe that have nothing to do with ACC AAC also does not stand on its own it relies on reinforced concrete poured bond beams and core down pours to hold the whole structure together, it is really a better version of a masonry wall. |
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Chris Kavala
info@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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aekimble
New Member
Posts:13
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| 18 Jan 2010 05:38 PM |
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Sorry Chris your assumtions are wrong again. I never mentioned the invention of portland cement. And to further your point portland cement is only a small part of what makes AAC.
~62% Sand & Gypsum
~27% Portland Cement
~11% Quick Lime
Aluminum (Paste)
that makes Tobermorite
hydrated calcium silicate (5CaO·6SiO2·5H2O).
And again your assumptions are misleading AAC does not need any reinforcing core down pours. In Europe, there are no core down pours in blocks. Our thin bed mortar (modified polymer) makes AAC stick together (actually a monolithic wall after thin bed mortar has set). ACI made the recommendations for cores in AAC due to the similar nature of CMU. Its not that we needed it. Everywhere in the world the prefered construction type is cemetitious walls. They refer to wood buildings as match stick buildings. Once, they catch fire they light like a match. Lastly we are not the better masonry wall but, the best masonry wall and best all around building product. The point of reference to AAC in Europe is not to say it is all AAC but, to say cementitious materials last. |
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