Hans.....what part of the country are you in?

I have no reason to doubt the credibility of HansConst as an individual, but I do dispute the credibility of what he says he can include for $ 8.00 a sq.ft.

It is impossible to do any price comparisons unless we specify exactly what we are including in a sq.ft. price.

ICF forms:

·         Foam thickness –  component R-value

·         Ties -  width, spacing. pull out strength

·         Finished result -  no cupping, bowing, stays plumb and level.

At $ 8.00 a sq.ft this supposedly includes:

·         ICF forms – supply , shipping , and unloading on site

·         Concrete-  supply of and placing (pumping)

·         Rebar – supply and install

·         Window buck material- supply and install

·         Miscellaneous materials - supply

·         Legal employees -  and all incidentals require to be a legitimate  company

·         Labour – includes putting up the ICF forms, supplying and setting up the bracing, installing bucks, rebar, and any inserts and cleaning up the site.

It does not include:

·         Concrete footings

·         Stone and weeper tiles

·         Foundation waterproofing.

Generally in NA an average price for the above would be somewhere between $ 11.00 to $ 14.00 a sq.ft, plus or minus, depending on regional factors for a typical residential ICF install.

I take  exception to your comments about the pricing of ICF construction in the rest of N.A. ,being a disservice to the advancement of ICF construction and all of what that statement implies.

You seem to be alluding to some sort of conspiracy among the all the other ICF installers in NA, to keep the ICF estimates high.

The only disservice that I see ,comes from your comments, to the character and integrity of all the companies and individuals out there, who are busting there behind’s, trying to make a decent living in today’s economy, in the ICF industry.

Joe, maybe when he saw your list he thought "oh crap, how do I supply all that stuff for only $8/square", went back to the drawing board.

Most of my jobs come in right around $11.25 - $13.00 per sq ft fro 6", $13.25 - $14.00 for 8". We have had jobs that have been as high as $19 sq ft (big cut up house, 30' 12/12 gable ends). - Pete

No need to go back to the drawing board as suggested, but there was a need to visit my 89 years young mother in the hospital. A higher priority for me than a daily posting to this forum. Thanks anyway, and I'm sorry, but I don't find the time to spend on the forum that some do.

I may have actually suggested a conspiracy of one, or two, when I wondered if there weren't someone or other that would post prices for ICF installations far higher than what I believe is fair in order to promote other methods of building (SIP, wood frame . . .). I think if one reads the sentence clearly that they will realize there was no conspiratorial charge being leveled against real ICF installers.

Everyone has the right to take exception to another's comments, however here is an opportunity to go beyond simply taking exception and expressing opinion. I agree that readers of the forum would like to see both specifications and a cost estimate break out. Here is an opportunity to help everyone understand our pricing, and to justify the different pricing levels. Especially the higher levels promoted as being the norm.

We use two systems so specifications can vary.

Foam thickness: 4" or 5" (additional thickness available)
R-Value as per standard per inch for EPS (We should actually be talking about R,K, & U values within a performance based criteria rather than just R-value.)
Finished results exceed both code & also tolerances published by NAHB (Our customers often become our friend)
Materials and labor are inclusive.
Installation is by a legal and legitimate company, and for over twenty years of ICF work.

So here again is the opportunity to justify our pricing and profits.
I'm willing to go first, and look forward to comparative estimates from all.


44' x 52' rectangle at 4' elevation.

ICF @ 4.19 sf 3165.75
9.5 yards concrete @ 90.00 855.00
rebar as per code @ .30 sf 226.50
misc 10.00
Labor 5 hrs x 3 men x 30.00/hr 450.00
TOTAL 4707.25



Divide by 768 sf wall for an installed cost of $6.13 sf *

* If the company requires a 20% margin on material and labor the square foot price goes to $7.36

* If a flat style ICF is requested rather than screen gird one adds $0.56 per sf for $7.92 a Square Foot




44' x 52' rectangle x 8' elevation

ICF @ $4.19 sf 6331.50
19 yards concrete @ $90/yd 1710.00
Rebar per code @ $0.53 sf 800.00
Bracing 100.00
Misc. 25.00
Labor (max 16 hrs x 3 men x $30/hr) 1080.00
TOTAL 10046.50

Divided by 1536 sf of Wall is $6.54 SF *

Need 20% then charge $7.85 SF
Need a requeste flat wall then add 0.56 SF for $8.41




Twenty Percent on the 4' wall adds 941.45 for a 5 hour project.
That would be $188.29 per hour plus the $30 labor for an hourly wage for the owner of $218.29
Customer covers margin on block. Minimum of $.75 SF
Income would be $1658.45 for five hours.

Twenty Percent on an 8' wall adds $2009.30 for a two day project.
That would be $125.58 per hour plus the $30 labor for an hourly wage of just over $155
The customer also covers the margin on the block. Minimum of $.75 per square foot?
Income would be $3623.30 or $1811.65 per day.

I am sorry to hear about your mother. I hope that all is well. We only get one mother in a lifetime.

In the spirit of an apple for apple comparison for the consumer;

I noticed that you omitted commenting on the: Ties-width, spacing   , and pull out strength.

Does this mean that there are no attachment points built in on the inside and outside of the forms?

If there are no attachment points, how do you attach bracing and scaffolding for your 8’0” walls and the

9’4” and 10’4’ commonly used wall heights?

If there are no attachment points, how do your customers attach, drywall, siding, etc.

And at what cost?

Do heights  higher than 8’0’ affect your pricing structure?

You do not make any reference, as to what means, or a cost to get the concrete in the forms, and the supply of window buck materials.

Does this mean that you pour directly out of trucks?

And does this example that you use have no window bucks in it?

A hundred dollars for bracing. You need to let me know which system you use!

And $ 10.00 for misc. How much are 2x4’s, concrete nails, and screws, anchor bolts, where you operate your business from?

I must commend you on your install rate of 32gsf/worker-hour for a block system. Very impressive! Do additional corners add to your price?

I can’t recall the last time I did a foundation with 4 corners and 4 money walls!

A typical foundation for my area would consist of at least 9 corners and 3 to four window bucks, beam pockets etc.

I believe that in a screen grid system, there is not a band of concrete throughout the wall. There are sections where there is no concrete, only foam. Is this correct?

If this turns out to be a true apple for apple comparison, for the consumer,  as you seem to be alluding to, then your profit  for a year by your numbers would be $ 261,209.00 a year or $ 5,023.25 a week after paying for concrete,placement,rebar,forms,bucks,incidentals,and labour curb to curb.

That means that a person charging $ 12.00, in the rest of the country would be making, if my math is correct, $ 20,383.25 a week and $ 1,059,929.00 a year  according to you.

 

The project sample I offered and estimated is basic on purpose - so that readers can quickly grasp unit costs without needing to factor numerous variables, and so that other estimators might more easily, and hopefully more readily, offer their estimates. Basic without numerous variables does not however mean that the cost per square foot need be significantly higher.

Other than the question about tie pullouts strength, the elements you specified were all included. We can continue including more as we go, or change the specifications, and never find a common ground to use for comparative estimates. That said, I will gladly offer replies to the additional questions.

* * * * * * * * * *


In the spirit of an apple for apple comparison for the consumer;

I noticed that you omitted commenting on the: Ties-width, spacing , and pull out strength.
Does this mean that there are no attachment points built in on the inside and outside of the forms?
If there are no attachment points, how do you attach bracing and scaffolding for your 8’0” walls and the 9’4” and 10’4’ commonly used wall heights?
If there are no attachment points, how do your customers attach, drywall, siding, etc. And at what cost?

* * * < Two systems; one with vertical ties at 8" o.c., and one with horizontal ties at 12" o.c. Both sufficient to hold drywall or siding, and satisfy code. There are numerous other ways materials can be attached which seems a long off the topic subject befitting its own topic. >

Do heights higher than 8’0’ affect your pricing structure?

* * * < No, not really. There is a differential in the estimates for 4' and 8' since scaffold, bracing, and other factors change. Beyond eight foot there is little additional cost unless one is trying to brace something twenty feet or more, but that isn't what we are comparing. Let's keep the apples just apples. >

You do not make any reference, as to what means, or a cost to get the concrete in the forms, and the supply of window buck materials. Does this mean that you pour directly out of trucks?

* * * > Sure, why not pour out of a truck unless it can't access the project? What extra cost is it at that point? If one requires a pump truck then of course it would add something to the project, but not this basic project for a basement on flat ground. Suppose $500 for a pump. Add about $0.33 per square foot. Still not getting up into that $11 to $14 a SF elevation. >

And does this example that you use have no window bucks in it?

* * * < Right, none specified. Here is a material & labor comparison for you: 4' x4' opening saves $84 in form & concrete while buck material and labor is $48. $36 saved. Are you charging extra for every opening? >

A hundred dollars for bracing. You need to let me know which system you use!

* * * < Eight bracing points max. uses 24 8' two by fours and 24 Oly Log screws which are reusable many times. How much would you suggest is a fair charge out for this item? It is a really great bracing method invented by one of our installers. Takes about two minutes at each point, and can be placed anywhere along the wall without having to hit a specific tie location. >

And $ 10.00 for misc. How much are 2x4’s, concrete nails, and screws, anchor bolts, where you operate your business from?

* * * < Specifications were for the wall only, no footings, no waterproofing, no anchor bolts as there may be additional ICF on top. We don't need concrete nails, however the 2x4's for bracing were included in the "bracing" cost not in miscellaneous. But really the anchor bolts are a rather small item aren' they? Perhaps $40 for 4' on center which would add three cents to the square foot price! >

I must commend you on your install rate of 32gsf/worker-hour for a block system. Very impressive! Do additional corners add to your price?

* * * < Thanks, however an experienced crew will knock an hour or more off the four foot wall, and as much as 8 hours, 24 man hours, off a project as simple as the one specified. You are likely in the doubting group that many contractors start in. They become believers usually only when they experience it. I used high end labor costs, so obviously the profit rises when the project completion time is shorter. Over six corners, we add approx. $50 per extra corner on 8' walls. Still not a significant addition to the SF cost, and not applicable to the project we are estimating here. >

I can’t recall the last time I did a foundation with 4 corners and 4 money walls! A typical foundation for my area would consist of at least 9 corners and 3 to four window bucks, beam pockets etc.

* * * < This may come across as rude or mean spirited, however it needn't be taken that way. Small homes, affordable housing, and modular housing requiring a foundation are not those kind of projects that often use ICFs as the expenditures allowed are very tight. No extra money is often found even for energy efficiency. We more than compete with 8" bare concrete foundation contractors, and that's before the cost of insulating their foundation is even considered. >

I believe that in a screen grid system, there is not a band of concrete throughout the wall. There are sections where there is no concrete, only foam. Is this correct?

* * * < That's correct. What is the point? >

If this turns out to be a true apple for apple comparison, for the consumer, as you seem to be alluding to, then your profit for a year by your numbers would be $ 261,209.00 a year or $ 5,023.25 a week after paying for concrete,placement,rebar,forms,bucks,incidentals,and labour curb to curb.
That means that a person charging $ 12.00, in the rest of the country would be making, if my math is correct, $ 20,383.25 a week and $ 1,059,929.00 a year according to you.

* * * < There is no apple to apple comparison to make unless we see your estimate. Without your numbers and justification for $11 or $14 per square foot there is nothing to compare. It is true we make a decent living installing ICF, but it is also true that it is impossible to fill every day with a project. ICFs are still not mainstream so many projects are not offered to those of us who specialize in the technology. A reason that construction costs are historically higher per hour than many other hourly costs is that carpenters are unable to work every day - weather and lack of work don't allow that many 40 hour weeks all year long. I like the block you use. It has less concrete, and it is faster to install than many others. You should be doing quite well on the profit side of things. I would still like to use your block but for the engineering cost which precludes using it on many of the affordable home projects, modular home projects, and especially on the little remodel projects that are but only 100 Sf of wall or so. >

* * * I look forward to seeing some estimates posted here. Conversation and debate are good for the industry as long as it stays constructive and not confrontational. I can't in the end apologize for offering a lower price for ICF construction since it is a price we believe is both fair for the customer, and profitable for our company.

I am $11-12sf L&M

Your labor cost looks light... Unless my math is wrong, .023 man hours per square foot including placing concrete and clean up is pretty aggressive. You must have execptional crews.

All the prices given just seem so vague. $90 per yard times quantity equals this amount, I pay $125/metre, plus $2/metre enviromental charge (whatever that is!!) $15/per truck for fuel surcharge plus tax plus plus plus. I just can't make a quotation that simple and expect to make any money and it appears that every other ICF contractor on this site feels the same way. We can't all be wrong, can we??
Paul Stevens

Hans, again, what part of the country are you in?

I have been in the RCF business all my life, and your statement that you can more than compete with a RCF wall, is where you lose credibility with me. The RCF business is pretty cut throat with the economy the way it is. A common RCF foundation that we do , consists of 226 lineal ft, with 9 corners, 4 windows, 4 beams pockets, a check down for 1 man door and 1 garage door.

We arrive on site, unload the forms and stand up the walls and pour them. Come in the next morning, strip the forms, and lock and load for the next one. This ,with three men. For a total of 40 man hours, every day of the week if the work is there.

I usually tell my customers who are thinking of choosing between ICF and RCF, that in the end, the difference in price between the two systems, is the cost of buying the ICF forms.. In RCF you are renting the forms to pour concrete into and that’s it. No labour or materials to frame and insulate inside the basement and no insulation outside. PURE CONCRETE WALL.  In ICF, you’re buying and keeping the forms to pour the concrete in. Integrated with these forms also come the studs and insulation for the inside of your basement and equivalent foam insulation on the outside of the wall, up to the sill plate, labour and material included.

Regional requirements in a RCF wall can have a big effect, just as they do in ICF walls ( rebar, concrete, distance , labour rates, safety requirements, etc). For a average RCF wall, no steps, 8ft high, 8 inches thick, costs run from $ 4.00 to $ 7.00 sq.ft.,  plus or minus, labour and materials, curb to curb.

I know for fact, that in today’s economy, that the ICF contractors, who are charging the regional adjusted prices of $ 11.00 to $ 14.00 are buying the sharpest pencils that they can find, to quote their ICF jobs with .And I also know for fact, that it is impossible to do the job (without an extra here and an extra there, and another extra for this and another extra for that) for $ 8.00 in the regions that I have been in.

Your price is for a basic foundation that you rarely ever see, no pump, extra for corners, slighly extra for over 8ft to 10'4" ..................... a touch more for this ..................and slightly more for that ...................................annnnnnnnnnd........................?

I was always taught that when it comes time to review your estimates, if they are all not in the same ballpark, you always throw out the lowest one and the highest one.

The remaining estimates provide you with a fair price that will give you a quality job, with no heartache after. .

 ,

Joe, well said!! Call me this week and let me know when you are in the city.
Paul

It seems to me that it might be a difficult task to get HansConst to come off his position on pricing, but I am happy EVERYONE on here else seems to agree with my initial post on pricing (or there abouts). I am also not surprised that no one has come to HansConst's defense in pricing.

It would be nice to know where HansConst lives as Robinnc has asked a few times. Like Joesph mentioned as well, during these economic times, most ICF distributers and/or installer are using very sharp pencils when looking at projects because that is exactly what the competition is doing. It is because of that I was shocked to hear such a low price (as were we all).

I've been involved with these threads before where the opinion of one won't change and eventually we all get bored and let it go...which is what I'm going to do.

renangle

I have lost a couple jobs to $8-$10sf guys and gotten calls from the customer "is it normal that...." "I should have hired you" "can you finish it?"

I think one that we had to finish, 2 years ago, is still in litigation. Both the customer and the original concrete contractor lost on it and it was no fun for me. The concrete contractor, not to be confused with an ICF contractor advertised ICF installation but rented bracing.

I wish ICFs could be done for $8sf since money is about the only reason people in the know don't use the system. But wish in one hand.....

We supply contractors, and provide installation throughout the Northwestern USA.

I notice that some of the comments here sound defensive.
There are claims and inference that our work is shoddy, that we lack credibility, that we are vague, that we have omitted items from the estimate, that our low bid is invalid simply because it is low, that the estimate is too simple, that we can't install as fast as we do, and even that the subject itself is boring.

I'm not sure why the tone instead of joining the discussion topic which is "What should I expect my rough cost to be . . .?
The answers have ranged from Arkie6 with $6.00, and J. Farella at $14 plus or minus depending, to pcoughlin as high as $19.

And still no one has posted an estimate with specifications, only excuses and accusations. Where are your estimates?

I tried adding 20% to my estimate. Doing so raised the contractor's/owner's wage to over $200 an hour. That still doesn't come close to accounting for the $15,000 to $18,000 differential between the posted square foot charges, and our estimate of $6.13 to $6.54 per square foot.

Someone, the poster that claims we lack credibility, says we can't compete with bare concrete formed walls, and then offers a cost for his bare concrete walls of $4 to $7.00 a square foot plus or minus. How much more does it cost him to insulate the walls to code requirement.? Sort of looks like our high end cost of $6.54 a square foot does compete, doesn't it?

I'm sure the readers would like to know how, as would I, how you justify what you say you charge. What is your expected hourly wage, and what is you profit margin?

Can we see you estimates?

Okay, as Bubba the Love Sponge would say "Here's the deal".......

60x40x10' (9' wall height plus 1' floor)
Being a walk out, I assume along the 60' wall, 1 door- 6'x7' 2 windows-3'x5' 2 side windows-2'x4'
88 sq. of openings
Nudura block 18" high 7 courses 10'6" subtract 1' floor 9'6" minus 3"-4" slab and 2" foam 9' clear/finish
8" ICF 2100 square feet - 88 sq openings = 2012 net square

4 corners 7courses 28 block @ $23.00 + 13% tax $727.72
28 corners at 6 square =168
2012-168=1844 square /12 =153.66 standard block $8004.92
154-8" stds. at $46 + 13% tax

Total cost of ICF $8732.64 /2100 sq $4.16/sq

note that there has been no consideration taken for waste, sure hope I don't break a block!

Concrete 2012 net x .666 /35.32=37.938 metres
38.5 metres(1/2 for pump) x $130/m + 13% tax $5655.65/2100= $2.69/sq

I have not added $15 per truck fuel surcharge but lets not concern ourselves with the little extras try to keep the cost low!!

Now lets just have a look $4.16 for block $2.69 for concrete, $6.85 already hmmmmm.

Rebar
1470 feet 10m @ $0.30/ foot + 13% $498.33
1500 feet 15m @ $0.60/foot + 13% $1,017.00
Total $1,515.33 /2100 $0.72/sq
5% has been added for overlap

Braces
200 ln feet / 5 feet = 40 sets @ $15.00 + 5% per pour $630.00 /2100 = $0.32/sq
I like to use more braces than most people, more braces=straighter wall

Starter Track
20 lenghts at 10' per length $7.50 + 13% $169.50/2100 = $0.09/sq
I use track nailed to footing on all jobs to start off straight and square and keep the job going that way all through to the pour!!

Window Buck
80 feet @ $2.50/foot + tax $226.00/ 2100 $0.11/sq
I make my buck from 3/4" ply and 2x6

Pump
6 hours @ $170/hour + 5% $1071.00/2100 $.51/sq

Form Lock
200 feet $113.12 + 13% $127.85 /2100 $0.06/sq

So far here is my total square foot cost not including labour $8.66

Now here is something that every one forgot to add into their quotes the frost wall.
I assume the 60' wall is all walk out with the grade rising up the sides to the top of wall at the front of the house. therefore I would need about 100 feet of frost wall at 4'6" or 450 square at $7.57 per square, block, mud and bar equals $3406.50

So my cost for materials only for the 8" ICF basement without labour, including frost wall is $21,534.47

Now to build this foundation from unloading the truck, laying out, packing all materials into the hole, setting wall, placing windows and doors, strapping, etc etc etc. waiting for inspector waiting for pump concrete placing crete, stripping bracing clean up, will take at least 5-6 days. And I have an experianced crew that works quick, I am just being realistic. Also I own the company therefor do not work for an hourly wage like my guys do I am always on the go meeting customers, staying up late doing quotes etc. so I didn't plan on running my own business to make less than $100,000.00 a year, why should we. Plus insurances and everything else required to run a business; you know, I have had this same conversation before and typed all the same stuff but its fun anyway.

All that being said I charge around $4/square for labour at 2100 = $8800.00
My total cost for the basement/walkout alone is $30,334.47 $14.44/sq

Now Hans says he quotes the whole job 5800 sq at $6.54/sq = $37,932.00 only $7,000 more than my basement alone. I am not going to say Hans is lying all I know for sure is what it would cost me to do the job.

Hans you wanted to see quotes from others, well here is mine. Question it all you want, rant and rave about how every one but you are jacking up the prices and that you are the only one giving fair costs for ICF. But for me there it is.

Enjoy,
Paul Stevens

PS I am sure that there are things missed I have made no allowances for extra's misc. so if you guys think of some please let me know.

Thanks Paul for the cost/price breakdown, I will be building a walkout basement  bungalow next year and I'm curious as to the cost, % increase using ICF. I have a two story all stick constuction, (wood foundation), home, super insulated and passive solar. I designed the house 24 years ago and had it built in 1987, we have been very happy with the outcome and have enjoyed living in the home but it is to big for just the two of us.

In my retirement years we want to downsize and the only serviced city lot that I found and will be closing on in September will have very little passive solar gain. The walk out basement and living area wil be entirely in the wrong direction. So I'm really looking at sound, insulation levels and heating/cooling costs.

ICF seems to be the way to go but I'm still researching the costs to build and the benefits to the comfort levels for heating and cooling costs!

John

Interesting banter in this thread, I'm out for my day's work in a few minutes.
I'll crunch some numbers this evening and see where I fit in pricewise

JohnyH, I have come to the conclusion that to build ICF to the roof compared to building a well insulated stick built home will cost you in the neighbourhood of 10-15% more over the entire cost of your home. So if you plan to spend a total of $400,000 for a complete build you should be $440,000 or so. A few years ago I built a 3,000 square walkout bungalow for a friend\builder I know and he said the extra cost to him was $65,000 to go all ICF. this was a big, fancy home which I doubt you could build for less that $500,000-$600,000. So the 10-15% seems to be a fair assumption. I have also priced others and this seems to be the right number.

Paul Stevens