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Why?
Last Post 17 Feb 2010 10:42 PM by Gsfrey. 16 Replies.
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Greg Freyermuth
Basic Member
Posts:113
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| 31 Jan 2010 11:13 AM |
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We have a building system that is used 2% of the time a new home is built. We can build any home as cheaply as any other method, when fair comparisons are made.
We build faster, tighter and with less natural resources consumed. If we work with our subs we even help them do their jobs better and faster.
We have manufacturing in place to support national and international consumption of panels. And most importantly, our technology has been around since the 50's.
So, why are we only 2%? DR Horton built roughly 55,000 houses in the US in 2008. Why haven't we combined as a group to own the building trades nationally? As I read this forum it's like herding cats. I say we begin to talk about regional and national alliances and we begin to partner with installers and subs across the country to provide folks affordable housing, custom homes and when available large government projects.
I am putting together a web site, not online yet, but will be soon. If you are interested, bounce back to me. I don't want to clog this forum up, my e-mail is on this site.
I don't care if you are a steel guy, a MgO guy or a PU guy. I think if we had a combined effort to provide a customer any option, instead of stick, we could really make this thing work and make some serious money along the way. Kind of an Apple approach to construction. We will not apologize for being better! |
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Greg Freyermuth
915-256-7563, Phone
GregFreyermuth@elp.rr.com, E-Mail |
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trigem1
New Member
Posts:81
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| 31 Jan 2010 06:50 PM |
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Greg,
As I look around this area and see houses going up using stick construction, it just boggles my mind. Five years ago, when I wanted to build my SIP home, I could not find a contractor that would build with SIP’s. The excuses were numerous. Like “they’re way too expensive, they’re too hard to work with, they don’t work as well as advertised, they always need to be modified, this is the way I’ve always built houses and I’m not changing now, the subs don’t like them and charge more, and we can build it just as good as SIP’s”. I finally found an honest contractor that told me that although he believed all the above rumors, the bottom line was that he made money on the building materials and he and his workers made money on the labor costs of a stick built house. He would loose money building a SIP house. I finally convinced him to work with me and use the SIP panels. He was amazed at the speed the house went up, and very impressed with the quality, accuracy and strength of the panels. I was so impressed, I asked the gentleman who assisted me with the panels if I could be his representative here in Colorado. I ran into that contractor last week, and he told me he had his house up for sale, and he was definitely going to use SIP’s for his next house.
The thing is, I’ve been reading this forum for some time, and I have never seen anyone write about using SIP’s was the worst thing they have ever done. Yes, there’s been problems and irritations and mistakes, but in the final analysis, SIP’s work. So, if there’s anything I can do to help you in this endeavor, I would be happy to help.
Steve
SteveEtten@GrandCountySIPs.com
GrandCountySIPs.com
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GlobalBuildingSolutions
New Member
Posts:2
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| 01 Feb 2010 06:50 AM |
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Gsfrey, I laud your efforts, and look forward to the results. I realize I am preaching to the choir here, but this is supposed to be what SIPA does, though to date with unfortunately less-than-satisfactory results. Their goal should be the goal of every SIP manufacturer - to educate the consumer about our product. Builders and subs are the biggest stumbling block in this industry - "I can frame a house with 2X's in the dark with one hand tied behind my back - why would I make myself learn something completely new, more expensive, and force it on my subs?"
If someone can show the builders and subs the long-term merits of this product - regardless whether it's OSB, Fiber Cement, Steel, etc. - everyone would benefit, including the end-consumer.
However, in the meantime, the consumer is the target audience for such education. They are the one who is left with the building after the builder has left - they are the one who either suffers, or reaps the benefits of, the method of construction. Obviously, in the case of SIPs, the reaped benefits are sounder construction and dramatic energy savings.
We all attend trade shows, and more often than not, it's the individual consumer, and not the builder, who wants to spend the most time in our booths. They are the ones who have never heard of SIPs. They are the ones shocked when they learn the incredible savings possible. No doubt they are also the ones who have met resistance from their builders - "SIPs are too hard to build with and thus would cost you more. We can do the same thing with framing."
Again, I will eagerly follow your proposal - please keep us updated. |
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David Robert Wooten
VP, Manufacturing
Global Building Solutions
2509 Clements Ferry Road
Charleston, SC 29492
843-881-3590
dwooten@globalbuilding.net |
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Greg Freyermuth
Basic Member
Posts:113
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| 01 Feb 2010 09:30 AM |
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SIPA does not exist to sell SIPs, it exists to make it harder to manufacture SIPs. We should welcome new manufacturers into the marketplace. In order to have your plans stamped by a structural guy you have to have the necessary test data otherwise he is not going to put his license at risk. Structurally we are stonger and most strucutural engineers know so, we just need the necessary testing data to protect them and their well being.
Part of the plan is to develop a national, "Got Milk?" kind of program for SIPs. I don't see a buy Greg's or Chris's or David's SIPs campaign, but a national, "Are you looking at SIPs campaign".
Again, SIPA is great for making it difflecult to make SIPs but provide no support in selling them and if you look, the big guys support making entry into SIP manufacturing harder and harder and more expensive. It's good business! I do not begrudge them. I think we can beat them. We should be first and foremost a group welcoming others, both as manufactureres and also distributors and installer who have no desire to manufacture panels.
We, in New Mexico, can ship to Maine cheaper than folks in Maine can buy them. I have to believe others can do the same. We have to attack the opportunity on two fronts, price and environmental impact. The tree huggers dig one and the average home buyer the other. If we can build better and we can distribute with precision manufacturing and we can install quicker and tighter, well the sky's the limit... |
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Greg Freyermuth
915-256-7563, Phone
GregFreyermuth@elp.rr.com, E-Mail |
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GlobalBuildingSolutions
New Member
Posts:2
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| 01 Feb 2010 09:38 AM |
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Excellent points all, Greg. Afraid SIPA's pricing structure has made it prohibitive for me to justify my company becoming a member.
Please add me to your mailing list, and keep me in the loop.
Thanks!
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David Robert Wooten
VP, Manufacturing
Global Building Solutions
2509 Clements Ferry Road
Charleston, SC 29492
843-881-3590
dwooten@globalbuilding.net |
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panelwright
New Member
Posts:27
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| 01 Feb 2010 05:32 PM |
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Gsfrey your assertion that SIPA is a hindrance as opposed to help is laughable. The restrictions to manufacturing membership is a reasonable way to raise the bar of production quality. We have far too many manufacturing start-ups without any testing and zero 3rd party inspection. The results of this cowboy mentality is proven every time I or someone at SIPA gets called in to investigate and comment on a problem. Your comment "In order to have your plans stamped by a structural guy you have to have the necessary test data" ignores the fact that the majority of SIP structures are built without PE stamped plans. Therefore, without a PE review, who's verifying the manufacturer actually has test data? Is the test data current? Is it code applicable every time the code gets modified?
The number of SIP manufacturers that fly under the radar and operate outside the boundaries of quality production risk giving the entire industry a black eye every time they sell a package.
I'm not saying SIPA is perfect. They could do some things better and they could do a lot more with a bigger budget. What they do well is to ensure SIPs with a SIPA connection are manufactured to a minimum level of quality that gives the customer a greater level of confidence in the product.
If you really want to see all that SIPA is up to, come to Chicago this April and I'll personally introduce you to the committee members that are making a difference for the entire industry. I'll introduce you to the people that developed the associations code report. The very report that streamlined the entire process and, at the same time, made it more affordable.I'll listen to what we can do better and how we as an industry association can help you grow your business. Hell, I'll even by you a beer.
Al Cobb |
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Greg Freyermuth
Basic Member
Posts:113
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| 01 Feb 2010 07:34 PM |
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When we started making SIPs there were 32 people in the country doing it. And there was no SIPA to ensure anything. We have built SIPs building in other states and in other countries and yet none of this was done with aid of SIPA or any of the glorious services you provide. You exist for the most part so potential buyers of SIPs are not held accountable to review potential builders and do their due diligence with regards to reference verification.
What exactly can you do for someone? What can you do to prevent someone from building a bad house? And how many of the folks who are on your web site are there without having given you money. Are they the best or are the best willing to pay you money? You see you have never had a call about us and we have built over 500 SIPs structures and yet I see no signage on your site with regards to us.
Come to El Paso and I'll personally introduce you to someone who does more than writes reports and I'll show you what a 500 project/multi-decade reputation can do to ensure a greater level of confidence. We build SIPs homes and commercial structure and hope more and more folks get into the manufacturing of SIPs to drive down price and make more and more people aware of our great products. And i stand committed to making that happen. You stand ready to write reports and make entry into the industry harder. We are not a country club for God's sake! |
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Greg Freyermuth
915-256-7563, Phone
GregFreyermuth@elp.rr.com, E-Mail |
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trigem1
New Member
Posts:81
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| 02 Feb 2010 07:42 PM |
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When I read Gsfrey's first post, I thought he had made some valid points. When there seems to be a very superior house building material available, why stick build? I inferred from his post that he was interested in a site that helped convince consumers and contractors alike that SIP's are the superior product we know it is. But as the posts progressed, and with Gsfrey's denunciation of SIPA, I had to question his agenda. As one of SIPA's main goals is to help provide quality structural insulated panels to all, SIPA can give assurances to all that they are building with a quality product. As I see it, SIPA is an ally to everyone in the SIP business.
Steve
GrandCountySIPs.com
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Danehood
New Member
Posts:4
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| 02 Feb 2010 09:56 PM |
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As I read Greg's posts, I don't think he's necessarily trying to undercut or denigrate the idea behind SIPA. He's promoting a group that can help establish SIPs as a more recognized and less "cottage industry" portion of the building industry. I don't know a ton about SIPA as I'm just a dude looking to build soon, but it sounds like they might have pretty hefty (and likely not inexpensive) rules for gaining membership. Panelwright had some good points about the benefits of SIPA, and while I can't say I exactly agree with Greg's rebuttal, I think his heart was in the right place. A couple of observations not necessarily in anyone's favor:
- With the SIP industry largely being local manufacturers that don't have huge amounts of resources, I'd imagine it can be rather cost prohibitive to gain membership into SIPA. Manufacturers who want to be able to provide a quality product and promote a solid industry don't have many places to turn - their only option is SIPA, which is limited in both scope and accessibility. A SIP co-op/promotinal group could fill this gap.
- Quality manufacturing should absolutely be a priority. Poorly manufactured SIPs will hurt the whole industry, especially while it's trying to establish itself as a reputable section of the market. One thing I've noticed regarding just about any industry is that while one organization can set quality standards, that doesn't necessarily mean other manufacturing methods aren't without merit. If Greg wants to promote a SIP group that can organize manufacturers and builders while promoting quality without requiring deep investor pockets, I don't see how it could hurt. Just make sure it can (and does) police itself appropriately.
- The SIPA stamp of approval is a great way to promote consumer confidence. The consumer doesn't have to do hours of reference checks and callbacks. Not everyone has the time or the desire to do that. It doesn't guarantee a perfect house, but it's a start. An organization that can reliably police itself, while not necessarily as efficient as a SIPA membership, can help coordinate quality manufacturers and builders nationally and guide interested customers to those builders and manufacturers. They just aren't necessarily willing to pay extra money for an engineer to come out and tell them that yes, they really are manufacturing their panels the right way.
- With an org like Greg is promoting, people interested in SIPs won't necessarily have to go to a random chatroom like this and post the question over and over again "does anyone know a SIP builder/manufacturer in Charlotte, NC" or wherever. It can promote the different types of SIPs and advise of the verifiable pros and cons of each without the reader having to sort through half-truths and assertions of the shortcomings of particular methods, not to mention five pages of two dudes arguing about who invented concrete. There's an absolute benefit to this if executed correctly.
- The cost benefit you can achieve with this can be great. A co-op of sorts to achieve economies of scale could be created to everyone's advantage. Linking manufacturers with interested builders and customers that might otherwise never find them, and also being able to create some sort of public campaign for SIPs could only help you guys. SIPA has its place obviously, but it sounds like there's at least a few of you guys that either don't care for the direction they've gone, or don't get any benefit from them. Regardless, the housing industry is huge. A group that can corral the manufacturing and building segments of the SIP portion to help stabilize the practices and grow the product would be an immense help to the industry.
All that said, Greg did make some valid points from my very SIP-uneducated point of view. While not everyone will agree with all points he made - people have different agendas and priorities - I think he has a good idea that's at least worth considering. It's not worth slowing down the the possibility of growing your industry just because a few things he said ruffled your feathers. Just sayin.
I appreciate all the knowledge you guys allow me to glean from your pages. Best of luck to you all and your industry - I think you can have a great future if you play your cards right. Cheers,
Josh Hood |
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Greg Freyermuth
Basic Member
Posts:113
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| 03 Feb 2010 12:23 PM |
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I am not trying to impose any sense of right or wrong with what SIPA is trying to do. I am saying the average SIP guy suffers more from the ignorance of our technology than bad SIPs homes going up. For the most part, I have found our potential clients to be better informed and I often find myself selling SIPs against other technologies. My potential clients have long ago ruled out stick build. But I want more business!
So we have a choice; grow our individual businesses by grabbing a share of the 2% market penetration from one another or we begin to grow our 2% to 20% by grabbing share from folks who have never seen or heard of SIPs. If you have had your process tested and you have this data, you need nothing else to go to a structural guy and have your plans stamped and your client can then draw a permit and so forth and so on..., without SIPA or the "Good Housekeeping Seal of Apporval". If you are really assertive you can do this for your client and inform and work with local inspectors to inform them about the technology.
Josh said it far better than I, but how ridiculous is it that folks have to come here for insight and advise as to who is in the SIPs business. The Home Builders, of which I am a member, handles these sorts of things in this market. We need to have a SIPs group that mirrors the efforts of the home builders.
Imagine connecting installers nationally who wish to sell the SIPs within their spheres of influence. Do we promote our own? Of course we do. Do we ask you to join? Of course we do. It becomes more like a loose knit band joining together coop dollars. A super bowl ad would do what for our exposure you reckon? SIP Magazine, SIP website and SIP pajamas all for the purpose of promoting the sales and installation of SIPs products.
Point in case if I may: Increasing the spec's on OSB to the point where OSB manufacturers quit making their products available shrinks the marketplace and drives up the price of OSB. Again, anyone want to explain why we do this. Now, the OSB is harder to get, more expensive to purchase and we have not solved any problems. We have not experienced one sheet of OSB failing and yet we continue to improve OSB and to solve a problem that does not exist.
But if you are a member of the country club you want to limit membership and make more expensive the membership fee. You are not making the club any nicer or the course any nicer to play, just more expensive to join.
We can do better and I am going to see to it we do. And thanks to the dozens of you who have sent personal e-mails. I will answer each. |
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Greg Freyermuth
915-256-7563, Phone
GregFreyermuth@elp.rr.com, E-Mail |
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Greg Freyermuth
Basic Member
Posts:113
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| 03 Feb 2010 12:23 PM |
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I am not trying to impose any sense of right or wrong with what SIPA is trying to do. I am saying the average SIP guy suffers more from the ignorance of our technology than bad SIPs homes going up. For the most part, I have found our potential clients to be better informed and I often find myself selling SIPs against other technologies. My potential clients have long ago ruled out stick build. But I want more business!
So we have a choice; grow our individual businesses by grabbing a share of the 2% market penetration from one another or we begin to grow our 2% to 20% by grabbing share from folks who have never seen or heard of SIPs. If you have had your process tested and you have this data, you need nothing else to go to a structural guy and have your plans stamped and your client can then draw a permit and so forth and so on..., without SIPA or the "Good Housekeeping Seal of Apporval". If you are really assertive you can do this for your client and inform and work with local inspectors to inform them about the technology.
Josh said it far better than I, but how ridiculous is it that folks have to come here for insight and advise as to who is in the SIPs business. The Home Builders, of which I am a member, handles these sorts of things in this market. We need to have a SIPs group that mirrors the efforts of the home builders.
Imagine connecting installers nationally who wish to sell the SIPs within their spheres of influence. Do we promote our own? Of course we do. Do we ask you to join? Of course we do. It becomes more like a loose knit band joining together coop dollars. A super bowl ad would do what for our exposure you reckon? SIP Magazine, SIP website and SIP pajamas all for the purpose of promoting the sales and installation of SIPs products.
Point in case if I may: Increasing the spec's on OSB to the point where OSB manufacturers quit making their products available shrinks the marketplace and drives up the price of OSB. Again, anyone want to explain why we do this. Now, the OSB is harder to get, more expensive to purchase and we have not solved any problems. We have not experienced one sheet of OSB failing and yet we continue to improve OSB and to solve a problem that does not exist.
But if you are a member of the country club you want to limit membership and make more expensive the membership fee. You are not making the club any nicer or the course any nicer to play, just more expensive to join.
We can do better and I am going to see to it we do. And thanks to the dozens of you who have sent personal e-mails. I will answer each. |
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Greg Freyermuth
915-256-7563, Phone
GregFreyermuth@elp.rr.com, E-Mail |
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Paulcf
New Member
Posts:27
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| 15 Feb 2010 07:19 PM |
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Why you ask only 2%? It's SIMPLE!
1. Humans fear change. It's obvious, I've spoken to about 30 home building companies. Almost all are managed by a 'system' that is 'established'. Almost all are managed by older people. Fear to change. Fear to change a process (it ain't broken!). If humans really liked change, we'd be building SIPs houses on Mars.
2. Something new! Oh yes, same old fear again of something new...I had a major homebuilder tell me "Son, I'll look at any technology when it comes to me with 30 years of experience with it". Yep, fear of something new, gee, he might have to learn something new! Of course I didn't even bother to tell him SIPs have been around since he was in diapers. Guess pneumatic tools caused a major shift in his world when they came out.
3. Prejudice of cost. I've asked many homebuilders, what is your 'stick' cost? They often tell me that they really don't know! "I let the 'system' take care of that"...geez, I wonder how long till Chapter 11 catches up with them? So I then tell builders, I will supply SIPs for the same cost as stick, I will provide technical onsite expertise so your framers can't complain about 'something new'. Guess what? No takers! Yes, why should they? They rake in the money from people unaware of a better way.
4. Eating my own dog food. So what will I do about it? I got sick and tired of talking to CEO's who once used a hammer to frame a house 40 years ago and that's the way it's always been done. So I am building our OWN SIPs houses! Yep, revolutionary isn't it? Guess what? They do cost LESS than stick built! Yep! Guess what? The framers LIKE it! Guess they did the math on a 2X6 and realized that they can build MORE houses in a same given timeframe! Make MORE money! How novel!
5. The Internet is all pervasive, USE IT! Yes, the Internet is your BEST TOOL in your toolbox! Tell people the truth about the Matrix (I like that movie analogy!). Tell people what homebuilders do NOT want them to know! True R values! Mold! Energy efficiency! Remember, humans love pretty things...Show Homes are full of pretty things all staged to look pretty! Guess they sell cars that way too? Go beyond...get people to ask about SIPs, about a BETTER WAY TO BUILD a house. Not just pretty walls. Don't believe me? Check out the fashion industry and the cosmetic industries...yep, all about 'pretty', not about substance...and they make a heck of a LOT more money than we do! Use email! Social networking! Your homebuyers are using these modern tools. We don't even have a brochure (that's old tech).
6. When entering into a new market.....Learn from the movies! Denzel Washington in the move "American Gangster" said something like this: "When entering into a market, you must follow 2 important rules: Offer a superior product at a lower cost". Folks, it's a WAR ZONE out there! Have you heard about Hyundai cars? Yep! A superior product at a lower price. Seen their sales lately? So we are doing just that...building and selling bungalows built with SIPs for about $100K LESS than our competition (stick builders)...people are saying how can he do that? What is the catch? No catch, check it out...Better quality and a lower price. I build with volume (ever heard of WalMart?) and a lower price. The economy demands it!
So stop wondering and start doing! It's YOUR OBLIGATION to spread the word by DOING and break the paradigm! Are you going to be a Denzel Washington? |
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Greg Freyermuth
Basic Member
Posts:113
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| 15 Feb 2010 09:09 PM |
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Thanks Paulcf and it's my turn to quote a movie: "And Maverick when you get to your ship you will get your RIO. And if you don't call me, I'll fly with ya!"
This is what I have been talking about. If we place blanks strategically about the country, if partners draw from these blanks in quantities and we install in record speeds right next door to the very folks who told us to go pound sand. If everyone is commited to everyone else getting rich, well then we are in a position to change the game.
We are starting to gain traction with the second generation builders. They are educated and have seen the other side, that is to say they do not fear anything except being number 2. If we had 50 guys nationally doing 5 homes per month, we could put SIPs into the marketplace at 1/2 what the big guys charge and we can beat them on price and service and could launch a campaign like none other. Like I said, a super bowl commercial. What type of exposure would that be. I am talking NASCAR, PGA golf event or a blimp at events.
I get as many wives checking us out as men. Women are by and large smarter than us so it stands to reason they would do better accepting change. I mean they adapted to living with us...
We could partner, nationally, with Green Communities, do homes in New Orleans with Brad Pitt and have our own version of Extreme Home Makeover for disabled veterans or spouses of soldiers who died in combat. All this with partners doing only 5 houses per month. And most importantly, mini-IPO's for housing subdivisions to put SIPs into the subdivision exclusively.
And lastly, the web approach. Facebook, youtube, and even Foxnews, (sorry true colors coming through) to get exposure. I am building it and we are very close to making it happen....
Thanks Paulcf for inspiring me. |
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Greg Freyermuth
915-256-7563, Phone
GregFreyermuth@elp.rr.com, E-Mail |
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sipfan
New Member
Posts:12
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| 16 Feb 2010 12:28 PM |
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Enercept has been manufacturing SIPS for well over 25 years. We were, I believe, one of the inaugural members of SIPA. However, as with Global Building Solutions, the large increase in SIPA dues a few years ago gave us cause to re-evaluate the value of belonging to their organization.
SIPA does provide a valuable service to many, but is not a fit for Enercept at this time.
Greg, I'm very interested in what you are proposing and will be contacting you soon.
For the record, I believe it is important for everyone (consumers, manufacturers and builders) to know that not all SIP manufacturers are the same. So, buyer beware - check the company out thoroughly before you buy. Make sure the company you choose has taken the time and expense to have their panels tested and approved. A manufacturer does not have to be a member of SIPA to produce a quality product.
Equally important is making sure that whoever installs the panels knows what they are doing and follows the manufacturer's instructions. Most of the issues we have encountered have been problems with installation.
Bottom line - it is important that ALL SIP manufacturers find some common ground - there is strength in numbers. Grass roots efforts are often very effective; we'll give it a look.
Thank you Greg for getting the ball rolling
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Roberta Bartel
Marketing Manager
Enercept - The Builders Choice
1-800-658-3303
Enercept Custom SIPS - Building today for a greener tomorrow. |
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GlobalBuildingSolutions
New Member
Posts:1
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| 16 Feb 2010 01:09 PM |
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Roberta:
Nice to see our company is not the only player in the industry with the same opinions on the value vs. cost benefits of SIPA.
Truly looking forward to what Greg develops here. |
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| David Robert Wooten, Vice President, Manufacturing & Administration, Global Building Solutions, LLC; GBS-Liberia, LLC; GBS-Gabon, SARL; www.globalbuilding.net |
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greentree
Basic Member
Posts:183
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| 17 Feb 2010 09:27 AM |
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With the internet consumers can arm themselves with information but a contractor can quickly change their mind with a couple of ignorant statements regarding a building technology.
If you can convinve your "old school" peers that sips are indeed a great, reliable, cost effective product and show them so they can touch, inspect and see what it's all about they will direct people to sips. I've read alot of comments about contractors wanting the money for framing as being a reason of resistance, I dont find that to be true at all. Framing is a pain in the ass. The problem is how sips are positioned as an "alternative building technology" and not just a good way to build.
Here's a local company doing well building panelized stick frame systems. They cost a contractor more but save time and labor hours, sound familiar? They are popular with contractors here in a 8500+ hdd climate. If that's not a slap in the face to you SIPS guys....well their gallery pictures otta make your stomaches hurt but hopefully give you some inspiration.
http://www.blenkerco.com/index.shtml |
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Greg Freyermuth
Basic Member
Posts:113
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| 17 Feb 2010 10:42 PM |
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I went to their site and it was tight. I think they get the online marketing part pretty well. Again, take their concept, DR Horton uses this pre0fab wall thing extensively, and add insulation to it and abracadabra, SIPs. The key is their pre-site work, again world class, at least the pictures.
Part of the plan is to have strategically positioned folks to support the SIPs community. We can either install or instruct. If our partners have the proper licensing then they can move in and help the homeowners help themselves. We have licensing in NM and in Texas you only need a pick up truck and we have 2 of those. I think it is time to begin...
Thanks Greentree for the information on the site. |
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Greg Freyermuth
915-256-7563, Phone
GregFreyermuth@elp.rr.com, E-Mail |
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