exterior insulation & siding - question
Last Post 15 Feb 2010 08:04 AM by Flo. 10 Replies.
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jerkylipsUser is Offline
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05 Feb 2010 09:47 AM

When I was talking to our builder, he expressed a concern about using 2" foam board outside the sheathing.  We are using vinyl siding.  He said that in the past he has seen some houses that had the foam board under the siding, & when the siding is nailed in, it can "suck in" the siding since the foam board isn't as rigid as osb.  He said that you can potentially see "waves" when looking down the wall.

Has anyone heard of this?  If so, any solutions?

I don't know if this is legit/up to code, but would attaching the foam board to the outer side studs, then the OSB on the outside be an option?

BruceUser is Offline
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05 Feb 2010 11:43 AM

Vinyl siding should be "hung" on by the nail rather than nailed down tight.    If they do it right, I wouldn't think it would be pulled in.  However, there seems to be more done wrong than right, especially when they use the nail gun to do it.   Also, vinyl siding should be able to move rather easily sideways on the nails.  This is to handle the expansion and contraction the siding experiences.

 

As to the other question about the insulation directly to the studs, the answer depends on how they accomplish the rest of the task.  If they use let in bracing, it might be possible.  They might be able to do it everywhere but the corners.  They may have to use solid sheathing on the corners only.  Your local codes would dictate.

Bob IUser is Offline
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07 Feb 2010 10:14 AM
Did a reno on a house built that way using 1" of foam, then clapboarded. (Mid 80's "passive solar") When I removed the siding found the foam had been broken in numerous places while being installed, plus the 8d nails they had to use looked terrible, cracked the siding and put lots of unnecessary holes through the foam into the (fiberglass) insulation bays - especially when they missed the stud. Whatever benefits the architect had envisioned by using the foam looked like they had been nullified by the installation and the huge amounts of infiltration allowed by those methods. On the positive side, the solar hot water system worked great after 20+ years. It may be legal to use foam in place of plywood if the building is braced well enough, but IMO the savings aren't worth it.

"you can potentially see "waves" when looking down the wall." He may have been looking at siding nailed to the sheathing or studs through the foam - maybe foam used as sheathing rather than on top of sheathing. Stap the wall with 1x3's screwed through the foam into the studs - its pretty hard to crush foam installed over plywood/osb when the load is spread out over the board - then attach the siding to the strapping.
Bob Irving
RH Irving Homebuilders
Certified Passive House Consultant
aardvarcusUser is Offline
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07 Feb 2010 04:03 PM
Bob is right, use a board over the foam to attach the siding to. I wouldn't recommend building any wall without using plywood sheathing, because without it you are inherently creating a weaker wall. Not only does plywood add diagonal bracing, but installed properly it captures the top and bottom plates to the studs, helping tie the wall together in case of high winds from a storm. Also, in high winds that can turn anything into a projectile, I would definitely want something more in between me and the outside than just vinyl, foam, fiberglass, and drywall. I would suggest going studs, plywood, foam, furring material, then vinyl.
jerkylipsUser is Offline
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08 Feb 2010 09:01 AM
Posted By aardvarcus on 02/07/2010 4:03 PM
Bob is right, use a board over the foam to attach the siding to. I wouldn't recommend building any wall without using plywood sheathing, because without it you are inherently creating a weaker wall. Not only does plywood add diagonal bracing, but installed properly it captures the top and bottom plates to the studs, helping tie the wall together in case of high winds from a storm. Also, in high winds that can turn anything into a projectile, I would definitely want something more in between me and the outside than just vinyl, foam, fiberglass, and drywall. I would suggest going studs, plywood, foam, furring material, then vinyl.

Thanks for the advice, I can talk to him about this.  The only issue I see with your suggestion is that the wall is getting pretty thick at that point.  2x6 + 2" foam board + furring strips = 9" thick wall.

Reading through the responses, I want to clarify one point.  We are not considering using foam board in lieu of osb sheathing, it will be in addition.  My question really was, "should the foam board go under or over the sheathing.  Sorry if I didn't state that clearly..
Jesse ThompsonUser is Offline
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08 Feb 2010 12:08 PM
Thick walls are good! Don't be scared of thick walls. We do 12" thick walls quite commonly these days, they really help with window appearance as well.
Jesse Thompson
Kaplan Thompson Architects
http://www.kaplanthompson.com/
Portland, ME

Beautiful, Sustainable, Attainable
Jesse ThompsonUser is Offline
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08 Feb 2010 12:10 PM
Jesse Thompson
Kaplan Thompson Architects
http://www.kaplanthompson.com/
Portland, ME

Beautiful, Sustainable, Attainable
jerkylipsUser is Offline
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08 Feb 2010 12:34 PM
Posted By Jesse Thompson on 02/08/2010 12:08 PM
Thick walls are good! Don't be scared of thick walls. We do 12" thick walls quite commonly these days, they really help with window appearance as well.

I agree with you about the window well appearance, and we are going to have somewhat thicker walls than "normal".  I'm just thinking that for the extra cost of extensions & stuff, that 1" furring strip isn't adding any real performance for the extra costs it will create.
ondrashekbUser is Offline
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08 Feb 2010 08:08 PM
2" Foam is ridgid enough that, as long as it is fastened properly, it should suck up tight to the sheathing and therefore the siding should lay flat. The bows many people see originate at the studs and carry on through to the outside. Remember to "hang" the siding, tape your seams and you should be fine!!!
greenbuildpost.comUser is Offline
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13 Feb 2010 09:56 AM
Posted By jerkylips on 08 Feb 2010 09:01 AM
Posted By aardvarcus on 02/07/2010 4:03 PM
Bob is right, use a board over the foam to attach the siding to. I wouldn't recommend building any wall without using plywood sheathing, because without it you are inherently creating a weaker wall. Not only does plywood add diagonal bracing, but installed properly it captures the top and bottom plates to the studs, helping tie the wall together in case of high winds from a storm. Also, in high winds that can turn anything into a projectile, I would definitely want something more in between me and the outside than just vinyl, foam, fiberglass, and drywall. I would suggest going studs, plywood, foam, furring material, then vinyl.

Thanks for the advice, I can talk to him about this.  The only issue I see with your suggestion is that the wall is getting pretty thick at that point.  2x6 + 2" foam board + furring strips = 9" thick wall.

Reading through the responses, I want to clarify one point.  We are not considering using foam board in lieu of osb sheathing, it will be in addition.  My question really was, "should the foam board go under or over the sheathing.  Sorry if I didn't state that clearly..


agreed
FloUser is Offline
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15 Feb 2010 08:04 AM
We have a 1 inch exterior silverboard which has aspenite behind it. We are attaching a vertical vinyl siding and have had conflicting recommendations from contractors over the need to strap or not for the vinyl siding. The reason for strapping would be because the nails may not hold into the aspenite well enough when going through the silverboard. Any thoughts?
Thank- you,

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