I object to your #2 statement as highlighted

Ok, so I stand, corrected on this one issue. Actually I learned something from your response, as perhaps others did. Howerver, it would have been nice if you had not opened your response to my post with "Your comments are mis-information" since the issue of "SIPs,ICF's, and Missles" was only one of my points. Also, I may do a little research here, it seems like I saw a report about "wind driven objects and ICF walls" which resulted in virtually no damage. I'll bet that a 2 x 4 striking a steel skinned sip at 180 mph would at least result in a heck of a "dent"........don't you think?

Again, as I did in a recent post, I would caution anyone who is planning to build with any SIP type or brand, to be sure that the product is approved within the state where their building site is located, (eg: California and Oregon) and in some cases cities and counties (eg: Los Angeles) There may be others but these are the ones that I'm aware of that do have approval procedures in place for SIPs.

Also, I would stilll be interested in knowing what type of a project the instigator of this thread had in mind when he started it, residential or commercial?
As I said before, while there are many issues that apply to both, there are also major differences that could make many of the previous posts irrelevant, if, indeed, the original post was in connection with a commercial project (Not "wrong", or "mis-information", just, in some cases "not applicable")

A big dent would not be considered a failure, actually in tesing the 2x4 shot out of a cannon does not penetrate the outer steel skin, the panel seems to absorb and distribute the momentary impact load

A building that had no damage during a 180 mph wind obviously avoided any 2x4s getting hurled at it.

What the Einstein's fail to realize is that at 180 mph if the wind picks up a travel trailer or a small car and slams it againts your house, it will result in catastophic loss.
the impact glass may not blow out, but they will most assuredly all be broken

This thread is silly.

I'm the original poster. Did not realize I was posting in the commercial section. I'm looking to build a weekend home which will eventually become my full time home if I ever get to retire.

I'm trying to figure out what I can afford. I'm getting the feeling that SIPs are less expensive than ICFs. I don't care about hurricanes, tornados or earthquakes as the area is not prone to them, (Hudson Valley, NY), though they do occur from time to time. Flooding should not be an issue as I'm looking for a building site on high ground.

Durability is a factor, but nothing has to last past my death, I'd just want low maintenance while I'm around.

No harm, no foul, "Want to Build", I just thought that the issue of "residential or commercial" was worth clarifying. Your original post certainly stirred up some "interesting, and creative", responses, didn't it? However, I would have to disagree with the post stating "this tread is silly".

In any event There is an R-Control SIP manufacturer located in Buffalo, NY if you're interested in pursuing this option.

Good luck with your search for that "perfect" building system for your project. That is what this is all about, isn't it?

It depends a bit on how grade falls around the house - is there a basement or wall below grade? Then use concrete below grade.

Solid concrete basement / grade walls with 4" or more of styro on the outside will perform better than ICF. Thermal mass is inside the house, cost is lower than ICF, and structurally likely better (at least the system has been tested for over 100 years). There are also lots of ICF installs with voids in them.

Thermal mass is handy for a modern weekend getaway in a place like NY state. You have to count on a week or more with no electricity sometime over the next 20 years (think ice storm, hurricane, etc). With lots of thermal mass your house will take a long time to freeze. Yes it will take longer to heat up - you will need to turn on the heat remotely 24 hrs before you arrive, but its worth it. With a high thermal mass, you can keep the place at 50 F very cheaply with a small heat pump and radiant floor, assuming you can't get nat gas.

A couple of quick things on cost vs performance and commercial vs residential.
1 Life Cycle vs initial cost. If you take the time to build Passive Solar (assuming your lot will work for this), you will be incorporating a 50-85% reduction in heating cost for the life time of the structure. If you incorporate the proper amount of thermal mass into your design, your home will stay at constant temperature with little or no additional heat or cooling needed for all but 14-21 days a year.
2 Hvac needs to be sized according to design. Anyone whom has a system that cycles on and off has the wrong size system. Have a Manual J calc done for each scenario BEFORE you build. Short money long term results.
3 You've indicated long term ownership. Learn from the commercial guys. Operating costs count.

It's a matter of opinion, really. What climate will you be building in?

> Thermal mass is handy for a modern weekend getaway in a place like NY state. You have to count on a week or more with no electricity sometime

In my opinion, such a house would be better designed to be easily prepared for freezing (ie, uses no heat). More reliable and more energy efficient.

I have worked on both and each has its problems. The sip performance depends on the quality of the manufacturing process and how well the panels fit together and seal . the owner was acting ahis own contractor and the Co I worked for came in late on the design stage anthe foundation and under floor plumbing was in. alot of panels were made wrong, and the roof panels still had air gaps even when twice as much spray foam ar recommended was used. there is always the possibility of Osb deteriating with age. Sips that did not require a skeleton structural frame, a simple box house would be cheaper. ICF's are normally leak free , no air blowing out the elect outlets. IF the builder isn't familar with the system. harder to get all the hardware to hang the floors , A plank ICF system will go up fast. The one we worked on Had counting all the levels 176 corners and 3 radius walls. way too complicaated for an owner builder. Our crew helped get the basement poured then he spent the next 3 years working on it. Thermal mass in An ICF house does help. I have a 100 year old rock house and It's a lot warmer in the winter and cooler in the summer than the meithbors house.

176 corners..............have ya got a picture of that one?

Having built both SIP and ICF houses and having lived in an ICF house for the last five years I would offer the the following observations.
Both are good insulators. SIPS are a little cheaper to construct and ICF 's are cheaper to live in. Over the long run ICF is quiter, less expensive and much more comfortable. MY opinion.
The quality of construction is the real difference. It is the air leakage or infiltration that robs you of conditioned air you have paid for. SIPS leak, ICF does not.
Color of the roof is important. The attic should be sprayed with closed cell foam and completly sealed at the soffits with no insulation over the ceilings.
Thermal mass can be a bare colored concrete floor or wall that the sun shines on and provides free heating.
Build with ICF, strap the trusses to the wall, put on a light colored metal roof, spray with closed cell foam, use insulated Low E windows and you have the most cost effective safest hurricane resistant house available. OH, use a ground source heat pump in SEER 19 or better.
Regards
Joe Redburn
LEED AP BD&C
E3 Builidi0ng Sciences
leedap@mindspring.com

To try to answer the question and hopefully not start anything...someone posted that they could do a steel sip for about $7.92 sqft installed. I can get an ICF wall done for $10.92 sqft installed. That is a dfference of $3 per sqft of wall. So for a house that is 40 x 40 that is about 3,200 sqft of wall so ICF would be a $9,600 upcharge (if all these numbers are accurate.

Based on that information...you should be able to make an informed decision.

renangle

Just to clarify - you are using 2.5 stories high for ~4000 sq feet of floor space? So perhaps 2% more?

Posted By renangle on 16 Apr 2010 02:21 PM
To try to answer the question and hopefully not start anything...someone posted that they could do a steel sip for about $7.92 sqft installed. I can get an ICF wall done for $10.92 sqft installed. That is a dfference of $3 per sqft of wall. So for a house that is 40 x 40 that is about 3,200 sqft of wall so ICF would be a $9,600 upcharge (if all these numbers are accurate.

Based on that information...you should be able to make an informed decision.

renangle

Depending on the complexeties and geographical area of the home steel sips could be done for $7.92

Our cost to install ICF has been varying from $6.80 to $7.64 per square foot. The variance is due to different rebar requirements below grade compared to above grade of about .37 sf, concrete varying about .13 sf, and labor varying about .50 sf depending on complexity. This includes good wages and a fair profit.
The discussions on the minor differences between ICF & SIP sometimes forgets that both offer the homeowner an exceptionally energy efficient home. Until we find a better method than SIP or ICF the mistake will always be building without using either, and finding out one owns a home that is about 50% or more less energy efficient. That monthly bill from the power company becomes a hard lesson to live with year after year.

Being a green building expert,home inspector & contractor working with many different types of buildings for way to many years( Hands on , not book calcs),Seeing the shortcomings ,life span & longtime maintance costs of all building products. The best bang for your buck are steel SIPs in Florida. Steel SIPs structures are safer in storms( this was proven in the panhandle after a major storm came threw,Fema report,A steel SIP verus ICF ,The SIP home was intact,ICF construction walls only thing left standing),More energy efficent than anything out there at the moment for the price.The bottom line you need a design/build contractor to work with that knows how all working systems fit together as a whole to get the best value. There is a few of us still around.In florida Chris & myself. My 2cents worth

Ralph Locke
Environmental Construction & Consulting Inc.
386-490-4599
www.Flgreenbuilder.com

Can anyone elaborate on the $7.92 install price for the steel SIPS. As to what exactly does the consumer get for that price as it relates to labor cost and panel size; such as the height of the SIPS panel, the thickness of the panel, and the width of the panel? Does the quoted price refer to the square footage of panel dimensions or floor square footage of a building? What about roofing cost, how is that taken into consideration?

Posted By Gin on 03 May 2010 08:55 AM
Can anyone elaborate on the $7.92 install price for the steel SIPS. As to what exactly does the consumer get for that price as it relates to labor cost and panel size; such as the height of the SIPS panel, the thickness of the panel, and the width of the panel? Does the quoted price refer to the square footage of panel dimensions or floor square footage of a building? What about roofing cost, how is that taken into consideration?

Gin;

to pin down an exact number you need a set of plans, generally speaking the $7.92 includes 4" walls & 6" roof for and average 2500 sq. ft. box foot print, average height, average roof pitch, average # of door and window cut outs, on a slab. The price is a ballpark not a firm quote and is subject to increase or decrease by as many variables as there are in home designs.

it is an average installed price per sq. ft. of walls and roof area based on panel installations of the past.

Roofing cost is a seperate cladding and has nothing to do with shell method