Falcon75
New Member
Posts:5
 |
| 08 Jul 2010 07:42 PM |
|
Hello everyone, I am just in the intial phase right now on getting a foundation dug, the crew will be sent out soon to set up my ICF basement. So before this project gets to far along I am looking for suggestions that might steer me in the right direction when it comes to preping the area for in floor heating. My wife and I would like to do most of the work ourselfs when it comes to laying the plex piping and attaching it to the rebar. The basement floor space will be 1440 square feet and I am looking for advice on how to start this project. All advice would be greatly appreciated. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Blueridgecompany.com
Basic Member
Posts:314
|
| 08 Jul 2010 08:13 PM |
|
We will be happy to help with your design.
in general You will want to start with a 6 mill vapor barrier, then 2 inch rigid insulation then you can staple pipe or tie to rebar pex pipe on a 12 inch pattern, manifold and on to the next floors.
Thats the start point.
Dan |
|
Dan
BlueRidgeCompany.com |
|
|
NRT.Rob
Advanced Member
Posts:988
|
| 09 Jul 2010 08:55 AM |
|
If this is an "open box" basement... all buried, no partitions... then I agree with dan.
If it's more complex, you should start with an overall system evaluation. The rest of the system details can potentially affect your choices here in the basement. Especially if there are any walkout portions down there. Heck, in some cases you might even want to put pipes in the dirt UNDER the house... not commonly, but it all depends on what your goals are for the overall home.
|
|
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
|
|
Falcon75
New Member
Posts:5
|
| 10 Jul 2010 12:13 AM |
|
Thanks for the replys thus far, the basement is just a box style construction 30x48 with three telepost in the middle of the basement. The stairs heading to the basement are located in the center of the house, went on Youtube and check out different set ups. Does not look too difficult to do, I might give it a go and see how I make out. Thinking on creating three zones and laying the plex pipe in a basic pattern as described in the video. Then hook it up to a manifold system and hot water tank. Put in a pump to create the flow and adjust the thermostate on the hot water tank and call it a day. The 6 mil poly and insulations seems simple enought to get done, and attaching the plex pipe to the rebar does not seem too difficult either. I am wondering why some people are quoted outrages prices when it comes to this? Can some one break down the cost of materials for me, I know you can buy an electric hot water tank for about 500 dollars, not to sure about the manifold system and circulation pump but I am sure there not that expensive. So it would be the pipe is the unknown to me at the moment. I live in Canada so I do not know if our prices are similiar to south of the border? Thanks Bruce |
|
|
|
|
jonr
Veteran Member
Posts:1046
|
| 10 Jul 2010 07:02 AM |
|
You might look into using HDPE pipe instead of the more expensive PEX. I haven't seen a good answer as to why PEX is used for situations where the temperature used will be less than 120F and pressures are moderate. DIN 4721 is a spec, although it is for a somewhat special HDPE.
|
|
|
|
|
NRT.Rob
Advanced Member
Posts:988
|
| 10 Jul 2010 09:52 AM |
|
HDPE has no o2 barrier and it's not flexible. not sure why anyone would use it for anything unless plastic welding is a hobby and you need 3" pipes or something.
you linked to a spec to PE-RT, not HDPE, I believe. two different beasts.
Falcon, why would you only heat the basement? |
|
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
|
|
jonr
Veteran Member
Posts:1046
|
| 10 Jul 2010 10:52 AM |
|
PE-RT is a type of non-crosslinked HDPE that doesn't need fusing. Is there a need to be concerned about O2 if there are no steel parts involved?
https://keithspecialty.com/hvac.radiant_heat.htm |
|
|
|
|
NRT.Rob
Advanced Member
Posts:988
|
| 10 Jul 2010 10:58 AM |
|
HDPE is usually used to refer to a specific rigid plastic in our industry often used in very large flow rigid pipe situations or, in some cases, for storage tanks... pardon my ignorance about the underlying chemistry.
few people use PE-RT in america because it wasn't available until recently, and few people care to be first to the party. that said, the PE-RT I've seen has an O2 barrier and all the same ratings as PEX. It may pick up in popularity over time but as of right now as far as we are concerned here it's the "new kid on the block". Other than that though I don't see any reason not to use it.
I don't recommend non barrier pipe in any heating application though. You never know what you're going to want to hook up to it over time, or whether those sources will be ferrous or not. it's cheap future proofing. |
|
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
|
|
jonr
Veteran Member
Posts:1046
|
| 10 Jul 2010 11:12 AM |
|
Agreed, once you add the O2 barrier and use PE-RT, the price difference is only 32% less. I see the point about the greater bend radius of normal HDPE vs PEX.
|
|
|
|
|
jonr
Veteran Member
Posts:1046
|
|
Blueridgecompany.com
Basic Member
Posts:314
|
| 10 Jul 2010 01:57 PM |
|
The industry for floor heat is set up for PEX pipe, it is not that expensive, manifolds are geared to PEX, why reinvent the wheel for one system. Do it once, do it right.
We sell both PEX and HDPE, generally the HDPE is used with fusion tools (expensive) and used for geothermal. The HDPE is also a stiff pipe.
Bruce, you are thinking correctly 6 mill barrier, 2 inch rigid foam, tye pipe to re-bar raise bar to center of slab.
you can run on a water heater, we are working on a new line of small (10,000BTU-60,000BTU) tankless electric water heaters that will in essence be on only when heating. Cost effective for this type of application however check with your local codes, they may require a boiler, if so a electric boiler is really a straight forward application as well.
Dan |
|
Dan
BlueRidgeCompany.com |
|
|
BadgerBoilerMN
Basic Member
Posts:488
|
| 12 Jul 2010 03:44 PM |
|
Perhaps a professional design is in order? |
|
MA
www.badgerboilerservice.com |
|
|
Falcon75
New Member
Posts:5
|
| 12 Jul 2010 11:47 PM |
|
Thanks for all great info, some more questions?
1 What is the max amount of plex pipe you can run off one loop, some one told me no more than 300 feet
2 Plan on setting up a three loop configuration standard layout would this suffice for a 1440 square foot basement
3 What size hot water tank should I use, and yes I can use a hot water tank in my area, thinking about a 40 gallon?
4. Should I use anti freeze in the system or stick with just plain old water? reason for asking is I will only be using the place every second weekend for now and worry about the power going out
5. What size in line circulation pump should I use between the hot water tank and the manifold system?
6. I was asked about why just the set up in the basement, the place will be located on 160 acreas and 100 of that is old forest growth so I plan on heating the place with a high efficient wood stove upstairs good for 3000 square feet and I will be putting in a wood cook oven in the basement good to heat up to 2000 square feet. I plan to supplement with electric space heaters when I am not there and also relying on my good old in floor heating as well.
Thanks Bruce |
|
|
|
|
jonr
Veteran Member
Posts:1046
|
| 13 Jul 2010 06:59 AM |
|
If you aren't always living there, I'd think about a design for the potable water system and foundation that allows the whole house to freeze without damage.
|
|
|
|
|
BadgerBoilerMN
Basic Member
Posts:488
|
| 13 Jul 2010 08:14 AM |
|
"Winterizing" anything but a cabin can be quite hard on everything.
Good insulation, above freezing temperatures, reliable backup heat in the lowest level and a freeze alarm.
I design many HVAC/plumbing systems for Northern Minnesota, Wisconsin and the coldest parts of Canada, where speculation and varied opinions won't keep you warm. |
|
MA
www.badgerboilerservice.com |
|
|
NRT.Rob
Advanced Member
Posts:988
|
| 13 Jul 2010 10:44 AM |
|
the only safe rule of thumb length, if energy savings is a goal, for 1/2" PEX is 250 feet or less. longer loop lengths can, in some cases, result in raising water temperatures or upsizing pumps. much longer loops can fail to perform at all... or they can work great. that requires design to tell.
the gallons of a hot water tank have very little to do with their output. you need to search a lot more about water heaters and radiant.
If you are not going to be there a lot during cold weather, I consider glycol a requirement. freeze alarms only work as long as the telephone lines are connected and functional. There are many other issues to consider as well. |
|
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
|
|
jonr
Veteran Member
Posts:1046
|
| 13 Jul 2010 11:40 AM |
|
Agreed, I doubt an interior freeze alarm worked in this case: |
|
|
|
|
NRT.Rob
Advanced Member
Posts:988
|
| 13 Jul 2010 02:53 PM |
|
hey, thanks for posting that. I've been looking for that picture for awhile. |
|
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
|
|
BadgerBoilerMN
Basic Member
Posts:488
|
| 14 Jul 2010 10:35 AM |
|
If they had a freeze alarm, there would be no picture. Most of us use microwave or satellite communication these days. |
|
MA
www.badgerboilerservice.com |
|
|
NRT.Rob
Advanced Member
Posts:988
|
| 14 Jul 2010 11:02 AM |
|
the cheapest satellite phone I've seen yet is about $1400, which I don't believe includes the cost of the calls. "most of us" are using it?
I've never met anyone using microwave communications. Met plenty who could get a local pro to check a glycol level every couple of years pretty cheap though. |
|
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
|
|