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Small Propane Stove for Super-Insulated Home
Last Post 16 Jul 2009 11:09 AM by tsalagi777. 6 Replies.
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lambabbey
 Basic Member
 Posts:145
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| 11 May 2009 12:53 AM |
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I've got a question about propane gas stoves and I'm not sure where exactly to post this on here.
I'm going to be building a 1,300 sq ft cottage in Maine that's been designed to be a super-insulated, airtight ICF structure with heatload requirements in the dead of Winter of around 12,000 BTUs. I know going with propane seems counterproductive when the rest of the home is all about being Green and sustainable, but the home will not have a boiler or furnace and needs to have a primary heat source that will run automatically without having to be constantly filled with wood, or wood pellets. It also needs to be something that requires a small footprint and will function without electricity in the event that the power goes out. I'm leaning toward a small Jøtul propane stove because it meets all of these requirements, however it still may be producing too much heat for the cottage to be appropriate or efficient (it's sized for a max output of 26,000 BTUs and a low output of 14,000 BTUs.) I've considered possibly going with a boat heater, but they'd require electricity if the power went. There's also a smaller Jotul, but it's a direct vent and could only be vented upwards if the chimney pipe is less than 15' (and it'll need to be 25').
I'm curious what other options might exist that would be completely automatic, not require any electricity, produce a nice fire to watch, and still be quite efficient in the 12,000 BTU to 18,000 BTU range. Any thoughts?
You'll find the design for the cottage HERE if that may drive your suggestions.
I'm all ears. How would you folks crack this nut?
John |
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John A Gasbarre Lamb Abbey Orchards Union, ME 04862 orchard@lambabbey.com
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ecobuilder
 New Member
 Posts:96
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| 11 May 2009 09:04 AM |
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I think your PV system is oversized, unless you are drawing more load for power equipment or something else. I just finished a 2,000 sq/ft home using passive solar along with SIP's envelope and the heat losses are about the same. Just under 10 BTu's/sqft at design temp. I used a geothermal heat pump of the house and debate an air source. The pump we used was a 3ton, the smallest one that would heat and cool. For a home this efficient and loads so small, I would consider a Arcadia heat pump or a Mr slim, although I don't know the efficiency of the MR slim at Maine temps. The Acadia was designed in Bangor to handle the tough Maine winters and claims a COP of 3. Use this with a split ducts system and it could provide heating and cooling to both buildings. The 2,000 sq/ft home I built used about 1,000 Kwhrs of electricity for the months of Feb and March this year. Total electric house that will have a solar hot water system up later this spring but for now is running on electric as well. Conduit has been run for the PV to be added later, local electrical company is putting regulations in place right now for net metering. Designed to go to zero once the cost makes sense, still a 20year payback at current energy rates. If you are looking for something that will provide the heat needed without electricity propane make sense. The Jotul stove looks nice and will provide all the heat needed consider the smaller one with the one the Max output of 17,000 Btu's. Still bigger than needed but more likely to save energy while still meeting your demands. Matching a heating systems output to the demand is one of the ways to get the most efficiency of the system. Sometimes when systems run at loads less than spec'd they tend not to run as efficiently. If the stove is to large you will heat up the space before the stove comes up to the minimum temp needed to run efficiently, creating on off cycles that waste energy. Keep the supply system as close to the demand with a small safety factor for the days when the temps drop below design temps. Not an everyday occurance but it the temps go down to -40 and the system was designed for -10 or -20 you may find yourself a little cold. Especially up in Maine, what part of Maine?
Good luck, the project looks great and it is always encouraging to see others that want to build zero energy homes.
Here is something you don't see everyday and is the first of it's kind. A thermal mass window system designed to capture and store the suns energy in the windows. I didn't get the heat up and running in this house until mid Feb and the house went through some pretty cold weather, at least for southern New England. These windows only went down to 49F on the coldest night -8F and the house dropped to 42F at this time. No other heat and once the sun came back out the temps went back into the mid 50's inside. This was the extreme after a week of highs in the teens and lows below zero the windows maintanined temps above freezing. Check it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdUGDAqyagU&feature=channel_page Tom Pittlsey ecobuilder@aol.com www.eebt.org
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| "Don't be afraid to go out on a limb. That's where the fruit is." Jackson Brown |
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lambabbey
 Basic Member
 Posts:145
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| 11 May 2009 10:29 AM |
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Tom:
Thanks for the great feedback.
The PV system we've got spec'd will be to juice a large barn, a greenhouse (with an electric heater), a garage with a separate guest apartment and also to provide electricity for the house itself. I considered going the geothermal route, but my site is just ideal for solar. The back roof of the barn will be oriented toward perfect Solar South, so we decided to take advantage of this and go with a PV solution instead. Since views on my land all face due North, the solar panels won't be visible by anyone but the birds. Nevertheless, I really like the look of a roof maxed with PV panels. Seeing one particular home do the same thing convinced me this was the way I wanted to go for energy. By the way, we're located in Zone 5, about 20 miles from the ocean, just West of Camden. The temps here will hit -20F only on very rare occasions, and even then it's usually for just a couple hours in the middle of a couple nights in February.
I like the Jotul stove a lot too, but again I'm just trying to see if I can find a similar alternative to it that may be sized a bit better for the heatload requirements of the house.
The Trombe windows you referenced are killer. This is really great technology. I would seriously consider using them if the orientation of my house were 180 degree in the other direction. The large bank of windows on the front of the house however will face due North so I'm probably going to stick with the Unilux windows we've got spec'd. All of the windows in the house will have a U-factor of 0.12 (R-8.3) with the exception of the ones facing South, which have been maximized for solar heat gain. But even those are still at a reasonable 0.21 (R-4.8). I would be all over the Trombe windows though if the house had the opposite orientation.
Thanks again for the info.
John |
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John A Gasbarre Lamb Abbey Orchards Union, ME 04862 orchard@lambabbey.com
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Brock
 Advanced Member
 Posts:521

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| 12 May 2009 02:26 PM |
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I would agree with Tom, go with the smaller Jotul. Even if you don't get full heating with the stove it will be well above freezing and plenty warm near the stove. If you get the larger one even set at half capacity in the spring and fall it will cycle a lot where the 100 series set in low output will run more evenly.
I have to admit I am bias towards Jotul, we had an Oslo in our last home and really liked it. In our new home I build a chimney chase in, but we haven’t gotten around to adding a stove yet, although propane seems like the way to go for adding just a bit of heat when needed. |
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| Green Bay, WI. - 4 ton horizontal, 16k gallon indoor pool, 1.8kw solar PV setup, 3400 sq ft |
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lambabbey
 Basic Member
 Posts:145
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| 12 May 2009 03:02 PM |
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Brock:
The smaller Jotul models (the 100 and 200 series) unfortunately aren't an option. As I stated in the original post, they're direct vent stoves that can only be vented vertically if the stove pipe is under 15 feet. I've got about 25 feet to clear, and the central location for the stove is locked in, so if I go with a Jotul, I'm pretty much locked into a one of their back vented models, the smallest of which is the 300 series for which I'm looking to find a smaller alternative.
Thanks for the feedback though.
John
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John A Gasbarre Lamb Abbey Orchards Union, ME 04862 orchard@lambabbey.com
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lambabbey
 Basic Member
 Posts:145
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| 06 Jun 2009 09:17 PM |
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It has taken a lot of digging around and researching, but I've decided to go with an Austrian pellet stove instead of the Jotul propane stove I was originally considering. It's sized much more appropriately (8,500 to 27,300 BTUs) for the little house I'm building, looks great, is super-efficient, programmable, and still provides the ambiance I was after with the propane model. You can even turn the stove off and on remotely by phone if you're away for a few days and want to arrive home to a warm house. Above all, it's a Green solution for heat.
The particular model is called a Rika Premio and it's actually available through a dealer here in Maine. You find details about it HERE.
John |
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John A Gasbarre Lamb Abbey Orchards Union, ME 04862 orchard@lambabbey.com
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tsalagi777
 New Member
 Posts:1
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| 16 Jul 2009 11:09 AM |
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Hi, John. I just joined this forum today, so I missed out on your earlier discussion. If you have not committed to a pellet stove, you might want to look at the Woodstock line of gas stoves. Those of us who heat primarily with wood swear by their soapstone stoves, and now they make propane ones, also, including a very small one which might work for you: http://www.woodstove.com/pages/gas_stoves.html
Woodstock does not sell through dealers, but only direct through the factory in Lebanon, New Hampshire. They will ship via motor freight to a loading dock near you, but it's great fun to visit the factory and pick out your own stove.
Regards,
Herb |
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